Reaction and demands to the article: The sad Truth about the AC

Hier kun je discussieren over Reaction and demands to the article: The sad Truth about the AC .
At the one hand, because we know the author personally and we consider her very well trustworthy.
But also one cannot dismiss an accusation like that by portraying the affected woman as “hysterical shrew“ or pissed off ex (that's how Andi O.'s counterstatement sounds to us).

Again and again women who fight against oppression of men are defamed in that way.
Too many female friends of us have suffered violence by men and weren't listened to, it happened too often in our scene, too many carry those scars for the rest of their lifes!

As ProFeminists we also think that the burden of proof does not lie with the affected person.
To us the demand for proof is not only absurd but rude.

Some of the critics about the lifestyle of the people in the A.C. mentioned in the article are debatable to us.
We all act upon different maxims and we find it hard to judge from the outside what others define as their possible form of living.

But in no way are we willing to debate about dealing with homophob, sexist or misogynous persons.
Solidarity has to be withdrawn from these people!
Others have to be protected from these people!
Structures and their protectors must be attacked!

In the counterstatement of Andi O. are no comments about the accusations against him at all.
He only tries to paint a pictue of Christina as a dogmatic ideologist, the world and all men hating (basically) evil woman.
To proof his point he writes: she supposedly tried this with some Band before.
We do not believe this picture, quite the contrary!

We follow her article since its puplication two months ago and meanwhile we can find it on pages from germany up to canada.
But we can not understand why there has been no reaction/ no taking position from groups or projects in belgium at all.
Antisexism is part of our daily political work and definitely no private problem.
Her article was surely not published to give Andi O. another chance to throw mud at her, but to point out this problem and especially this case in our scene.

We demand that projects and people in the surrounding of the A.C. Den Ezelhoek comment this case and take position!
(especially in the region Gent because of the post on indymedia Bruxsel: …„Ask around ghent and you will get the other side of the story.“)

Sdg. A group of activists from Celle

Denken die Duitsers dat wij

Denken die Duitsers dat wij nu Vlamingen zijn? Mag er wat context bij? Waar gaat dit over?

Gaat over

Gaat over

Artikel was ook gepost op Indymedia bxl en daar ook geruisd vanwege, meen ik, ongecontroleerde / onverifieerbare beweringen in de privé sfeer. Bij is de posting verwijderd, waarschijnlijk om dezelfde reden, maar het leefde voort in de discussie gedeelte.

Het enige wat er nog moet

Het enige wat er nog moet komen is een brochure of een "gezocht" poster en dan is de PVK terug. Ruis alstublieft.


Dat stuk is, zoals je daar kunt zien, niet geruisd (het staat onder Opinie). Toen het een tweede keer werd geplaatst, is dat op die grond wel geruisd: . (Nee ik ben geen mod, maar had het wel zien verschijnen.)

Mijn mening? Dat een links-radicale site zich niet zou moeten lenen voor digitaal moddergooien zonder nadere en ijzersterke onderbouwing. (Waarmee natuurlijk niets gezegd is over het waarheidsgehalte van deze aantijgingen, maar het punt is dan ook juist dat dat zo onmogelijk valt te verifiëren.) Maar naar die mening heeft gelukkig niemand gevraagd ;)

Women make the world go round

Women have been that important for the freedom struggle of mankind.
Women like Emma Goldman, Voltairine de Cleyre, Lucy Parsons to the freeom fighters of today have for a great deal paved the path...of all men and that of liberty and revolution.
For men supporting true (not hating men like-) 'feminism' is supporting their own fight for freedom, solidarity and equality.
You can see it in Tunis, in Egypt, in Brazil , in the US and Russia, in the Netherlands.
Women give birth to revolutions.

And that's a part of, why I as a (hetero) man, love them so much as well and could never see them as 'less'.


Lees even goed mee: "As

Lees even goed mee:
"As ProFeminists we also think that the burden of proof does not lie with the affected person."

Nog erger dan de staat! De bewijslast omgekeerd. Mods: Gooi dit weg, niet alleen ruizen. Wat is dit voor walgelijke hetze met namedropping?

"As ProFeminists we also

"As ProFeminists we also think that the burden of proof does not lie with the affected person."
Je bent blijkbaar schuldig tot het tegendeel bewezen is.
Ik vind dit maar een raar verhaal, het begint een beetje op een heksenjacht te lijken.
hoe meer ik erover lees hoe minder ik er in geloof.
Ik weet niet wat er daar gebeurd is daar, maar ik weet wel dat moddergooien op internet gemakkelijk is, en dat dat meestal meer schade maakt dan je in eerste instantie denkt.

Het onderliggende probleem

Het onderliggende probleem met de bewijslast is dat het in dit soort gevallen altijd zeer moeilijk is om uberhaupt bewijzen te vinden. Als het dus gaat om het serieus nemen en ondersteunen van de overlever (cq slachtoffer) is het een goede zaak dat die geen bewijzen aan hoeft te gaan leveren. Omdat het die persoon nog meer in een ondergeschikte en moeilijke positie zou brengen. Iets anders is het, als het gaat om het "straffen" (in wat voor zin dan ook) van de dader(s), daar zou natuurlijk wel een bewijslast voor nodig zijn.

"Het onderliggende probleem

"Het onderliggende probleem met de bewijslast is dat het in dit soort gevallen altijd zeer moeilijk is om uberhaupt bewijzen te vinden. Als het dus gaat om het serieus nemen en ondersteunen van de overlever (cq slachtoffer) is het een goede zaak dat die geen bewijzen aan hoeft te gaan leveren. Omdat het die persoon nog meer in een ondergeschikte en moeilijke positie zou brengen."

het is belangrijk om een persoon serieus te nemen, maar met gepaste afstand tot handelen. Het serieus nemen heeft alles te maken met verwerking van een trauma, zoals dan ook gebeurd met PTSS stoornissen in een proffesionele setting. Niet om een heksenjacht op te zetten. De hulpverlener moet niet in de handhavingsrol schieten en dat is wat nu gebeurd. Een oproep tot stelling nemen en dan wat? Met pek en veren de scene uitgooien? is er wel een kans tot wederhoor geweest? Heeft dit niet meer te maken met moraalpolitie spelen? Komt de tijd van scharen opsturen naar foute mannen weer aan?


>In the counterstatement of Andi O. are no comments about the accusations against him at all.<

Anyone has a link to this counterstatement?

No, you need to ask him. He

No, you need to ask him. He has the burdon of proof!


>here are the counterstatements from Andi O. the first he wrote as reaction on the article "the sad truth about ac den ezelhoek"
The second as reaction on "reaction and demands...."<

When I got to know Christina K. her ’fight’ was against the singer of this band I who had taken advantage of her...and, as far as she was concerned the rest of the band wasn’t much better, telling sexist jokes ; cheating on their wife while being on tour etc etc. And yes, I, and others with me have also believed those words. Back then it was that band who didn’t live up to the values they were singing about etc etc...something C. felt obliged to tell the world about.

So. For weeks I have seen this article popping up everywhere without having felt the need or desire to react to it, because I, and the people around me, the people that used to live in this house etc. knew where this was coming from and well, we just did not even find it worthy to react to what is obviousely another desperate cry for attention.

That is, untill Christina found it to be necessary to attack a bunch of people who have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with this at all. This ’article’ is about two people in general. The band that was targeted this week, the band that was warned about has exactly ONE person as a member. Myself I have nothing more to do with that band except thay they are my friends.

Now, what I see in this is indeed nothing but a cry for attention. I, nor the guys of the band she spread rumors about before are responsible for the pain and anger felt by this author of this article long before we ever met her.

So. Are these women rights then ? The right to break down every guy (and along with him all of his friends) because they could not live up to expectations that were created by the girl involved for herself ?

This is NOT a defence. This is hate propaganda which does nothing else but false accuse a whole group of people. Like I said, I’ve seen her do the same thing with the guys of that band in 2011 and sadly enough, I believed those words then. For too long I did not doubt her words, untill, I finally got to talk with the people of that band again, which gave me the proverbial other side of the coin.

And, when it comes to what is being writting in this article : well, there are many other sides to each point made in it which are not being mentioned at all.

Let me put it this way : this article was posted under the name ’cassiopeia’. To me, that says more than enough.

You know : these kind of issues is what you get when idealism is being used the wrong way ; when the balance is lost again. I find it a real shame that this is being regarded as another case of the women being mistreated. And, where the woman is believed instantely without having heard the other side of the story. You know, even the riot grrls who started the whole riot grrl movement have since then become a lot less radical because many have seen and realized the world isn’t as black and white as they used to think.

I’m very sorry, but this is not the way to find concilation and i’m afraid that Radhanath is right even though it may not be realized : anger is indeed a pollution for the mind and soul.

And in the end I also feel sorry for the woman who wrote this. I don’t hate her, I’m not angry...I really just feel sorry, because I know all too well that after this, there’ll just be another guilty party to point fingers at. This anger is coming from inside of her and it was there long before I or the singer or the band got into her life, and, dealing with that anger in this kind of way can unfortunately not bring any peace of mind at all. I will end this by quoting another very wise man : ’an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind’.

Ohkay...Christina wants a reaction from me...then, here it is :

Let me start off by saying that i would think this is not PRO-FEMINIST at all...this clearly smells like feminazism. Oh right, the very same reason why Curd Cobain did not wanna have anything to do anymore with the riot grrl scene.
Eye think that Christina that rides the chariot forget that I have spent six months with her. Six months that made it very clear that she does not even know the first thing about feminism or riot grrls.
Next..she will have scars for the rest of her life ? Ofcourse !!! When someone compulsivly cuts deep wounds into her arms and legs, it will most probably result in scars that will remain there a lifetime. But, to speak about scars. What about mine. Having been lied to for about eleven months also leaves scars. Is that something she choses to ignore ??
Ohkay. Proof ? To demand proof is absurd ? Ohkay. Then eye will publish proof myself if this keeps going on : proof in the form of Christina saying the same things about the guys in that band. Proof in the form of endless talks we had for months in a row where she claims to be so in love with the singer of the band, despite the fact that she had been abused by him.
Another thing i do not see mentioned anywhere is my stuff that i never got back despite the many promised that she would never do such a thing as keeping my stuff ; not to mention the money that doesn’t get mentioned anywhere. Christina did not have to pay for just about anything during our six months together. Shopping everyday while I was living in Germany, the months of traveling...8000euro !!!!!...of which she claimed she would give half back. A half that i still have not received so far. And...then there’s the rest of my stuff she was gonna send back...

*a guitar
*a brand new skateboard
*a complete skate with wheels and trucks
*my RARE cd’s of the band of which she claimed the members were sexist jerks.
shoes, sweaters, a RARE dvd etc etc...all stuff I never saw again.

So if Christina wants to discuss this face to face she is more than welcome to come to Belgium as she can bring all those things then OR eye am very willing to come to Germany myself. i can taker time off from November on and I don’t mind coming to Erlangen to get back what was mine.
Seriousely. i am starting to be a little fed up with this bullshit. This is the side of one person, and as far as eye am concerned, that persons is dealing with some serious psychological problems. So dear activists from Celle : you can tell Christina that rides the chariot that i, and with me a bunch of other people, are getting really fed up with this. You Profeminists may not fully realize this, but what Momo is, and has been doing, is pretty darn sexist as well if you’d ask me.
And as far as being an anarchist oh man oh man. i have to hear this crap from someone who has never invested one minute in STUDYING anarchist writings...?!
But, i will admit : i am not an anarchist. i am not a christian. i am not a jesus freak. i do not need those labels to define myself, and i certainly do not feel the need to put everyone that i see in some stereotype box. and, i will never ever put fake dreads in my hair just to feel better about myself.
and this is the very last time i will react to this shit. i still do not have a clue as to what christina is hoping to get by all this but i am pretty sure that it will again be bitter dissapointment. i have to say...i had hoped that she had used the past year to find some balance in herself, but as i can now see, this has not been the case...and that is something that i consider to be sad.


Beste mensen, Dit is

Beste mensen,

Dit is inderdaad niets meer dan gooien met modder en, het is meer dan spijtig dat
onafhankelijke media platformen zomaar gebruikt kunnen worden voor dit soort van
laffe aanvallen.

Er is trouwens ook gereageerd op deze tekst door een persoon die in het huis woonde
toen ook Christina er even verbleef en uitgaande van het feit dat precies die post dan
gewist wordt kan ik alleen maar concluderen dat Christina enkel maar reactie aanvaardt
waarin akkoord wordt gegaan met wat zij verkondigt als waarheid. Het is overigens ook
héél duidelijk dat ten minste twee van de reacties die er op gekomen zijn duidelijk van
haar eigen hand afkomstig waren.

Deze tekst werd overigens ook gepost op behoorlijk wat pagina's op facebook. Eén
van de beschreven personen in de tekst deel maakt deel van een groep mensen die redelijk
intensief met muziek bezig zijn. Let wel, deze groep bestaat uit ZEVEN mensen, waarvan
Christina welgeteld één persoon persoonlijk kent, namelijk, de beschreven persoon in de
tekst. Met de rest van de groep heeft ze niet eens contact gehad, maar toch gaat ze dan
nog zover in dit met modder gooien gedoe dat ze er zelfs die andere zes mensen rechtstreeks
bij betrekt door bepaalde organisatoren van evenementen deze tekst door te sturen.

Ondertussen is er op facebook ook al reactie gekomen van twee meisjes die in dezelfde periode
in het huis woonden, waarin beiden zeggen nooit zoiets te hebben ervaren als seksisme of

Dus, de eindconclusie blijft dezelfde. Wat echt spijtig is en te betreuren valt is dat een persoonlijke
zaak zo uitgesmeerd wordt op sites zoals Indymedia.

Sorry, but I dont think that

Sorry, but I dont think that this is an "persoonlijke zaak" !
If something like this happens (especially in political contexts), AND the concerned person advertises it, its not privat at all.
To keep it privat would mean to defand offenders.
People (especially men in those cases) have to explain themself for what they do.

You can not (for example) beat, or rape, or kill someone and say "dat is een persoonlijke zaak, dit zou niet uitgesmeerd worden"
Where will we end then?

And to attack a Band because of one member.... hmm.. to be honest, I would attack a Band of even twelve members when only one of them is a Sexist, Nazi, whatever... nerver mind they are good musicians!

then you'll have a lot of

then you'll have a lot of attacking to do. grow up already!


At least under mainstream/capitalist/"bourgeois" justice, the accused is usually reserved the dignity of being presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Now of course the history of revolutionary movements and organizations is rife with people diligently doing away with such unnecessary finesses and safeguards, all for the greater good, no doubt...

"Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

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