english
nederlands
Indymedia NL
Vrij Media Centrum Nederland
Indymedia NL is een onafhankelijk lokaal en mondiaal vrij communicatie orgaan. Indymedia biedt een andere kijk op het nieuws door een open publicatie methode van tekst, beeld & geluid.
> contact > zoek > archief > hulp > doe mee > publiceer nieuws > open nieuwslijn > disclaimer > chat
Zoek

 
Alle Woorden
Elk Woord
Bevat Media:
Alleen beelden
Alleen video
Alleen audio

Dossiers
Agenda
CHAT!
LINKS

European NewsReal

MDI klaagt Indymedia.nl aan
Rechtszaak Deutsche Bahn tegen Indymedia.nl
Onderwerpen
anti-fascisme / racisme
europa
feminisme
gentechnologie
globalisering
kunst, cultuur en muziek
media
militarisme
natuur, dier en mens
oranje
vrijheid, repressie & mensenrechten
wereldcrisis
wonen/kraken
zonder rubriek
Events
G8
Oaxaca
Schinveld
Schoonmakers-Campagne
Hulp
Hulp en tips voor beginners
Een korte inleiding over Indymedia NL
De spelregels van Indymedia NL
Hoe mee te doen?
Doneer
Steun Indymedia NL financieel!
Rechtszaken kosten veel geld, we kunnen elke (euro)cent gebruiken!

Je kunt ook geld overmaken naar bankrekening 94.32.153 tnv Stichting Vrienden van Indymedia (IBAN: NL41 PSTB 0009 4321 53).
Indymedia Netwerk

www.indymedia.org

Projects
print
radio
satellite tv
video

Africa
ambazonia
canarias
estrecho / madiaq
kenya
nigeria
south africa

Canada
hamilton
london, ontario
maritimes
montreal
ontario
ottawa
quebec
thunder bay
vancouver
victoria
windsor
winnipeg

East Asia
burma
jakarta
japan
manila
qc

Europe
alacant
andorra
antwerpen
armenia
athens
austria
barcelona
belarus
belgium
belgrade
bristol
bulgaria
croatia
cyprus
estrecho / madiaq
euskal herria
galiza
germany
grenoble
hungary
ireland
istanbul
italy
la plana
liege
lille
madrid
malta
marseille
nantes
netherlands
nice
norway
oost-vlaanderen
paris/île-de-france
poland
portugal
romania
russia
scotland
sverige
switzerland
thessaloniki
toulouse
ukraine
united kingdom
valencia
west vlaanderen

Latin America
argentina
bolivia
brasil
chiapas
chile
chile sur
colombia
ecuador
mexico
peru
puerto rico
qollasuyu
rosario
santiago
tijuana
uruguay
valparaiso

Oceania
adelaide
aotearoa
brisbane
burma
darwin
jakarta
manila
melbourne
oceania
perth
qc
sydney

South Asia
india
mumbai

United States
arizona
arkansas
atlanta
austin
baltimore
big muddy
binghamton
boston
buffalo
charlottesville
chicago
cleveland
colorado
columbus
danbury, ct
dc
hampton roads, va
hawaii
houston
hudson mohawk
idaho
ithaca
kansas city
la
madison
maine
miami
michigan
milwaukee
minneapolis/st. paul
new hampshire
new jersey
new mexico
new orleans
north carolina
north texas
nyc
oklahoma
omaha
philadelphia
pittsburgh
portland
richmond
rochester
rogue valley
saint louis
san diego
san francisco
san francisco bay area
santa barbara
santa cruz, ca
seattle
tallahassee-red hills
tampa bay
tennessee
united states
urbana-champaign
utah
vermont
western mass
worcester

West Asia
armenia
beirut
israel
palestine

Topics
biotech

Process
discussion
fbi/legal updates
indymedia faq
mailing lists
process & imc docs
tech
volunteer
Credits
Deze site is geproduceerd door vrijwilligers met free software waar mogelijk.

De software die we gebruiken is beschikbaar op: mir.indymedia.de
een alternatief is te vinden op: active.org.au/doc

Dank aan indymedia.de en mir-coders voor het creëren en delen van mir!

Contact:
info @ indymedia.nl
The Anarcho-Leninist Debate on the State
Daniel and Ben - 13.10.2002 06:17

An Anarchist and a Leninist, firmly convinced, above all else, of the need to salvage revolutionary theory from its existing state of degradation, have agreed to collaborate in taking their political principles into the ring. Join the debate! Post YOUR comments, criticisms and questions at the interactive web site

Announcing ...

========================================
The Anarcho-Leninist
Debate on the State
========================================

----------------------------------------
Join the debate!

Post YOUR comments, criticisms and
questions at the interactive web site:

 http://struggle.net/alds
----------------------------------------

** The debate question
** Introduction
** The Combatants
** The Debate Rules
** Our sponsors

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The debate question
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In the period immediately following a successful mass uprising against the bourgeoisie, should the form (or forms) of organization adopted by the proletariat to secure its ultimate liberation be understood to be a state?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Introduction
-----------------------------------------------------------------

An Anarchist and a Leninist, firmly convinced, above all else, of the need to salvage revolutionary theory from its existing state of degradation, have agreed to collaborate in taking their political principles into the ring.

The sparks will fly in this clash of ideologies, as they beat the living dogma out of one another. The shit will be dredged from the shinola, and the fragile ideologies of both opponents, though painstakingly built over many years, may well be badly bruised (if not completely blown to pieces) by fight's end. Only one winner will emerge from this battle: revolutionary theory itself.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Combatants
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In the RED corner, fighting for the Leninist team, stands Ben Seattle. Ben is an information theorist and infrastructure architect focused on building and using weapons of information war to serve the consciousness and organization of the proletariat. He was quoted in the pre-match press conference as saying:

"I have seen some of what passes for discussion and debate
between "marxists" and anarchists and, as someone who
considers himself a marxist, I am appalled at the evasion,
self-deception and denial frequently practiced by "marxists"
who are unable or unwilling to confront the residue of the
period, in the twentieth century, during which "marxism" was
captured by the enemies of the working class and converted
into a state religion used to justify the permanent
suppression of the independent political voice and
independent political life of the working class. I believe
that real discussion and debate, based not on evasion, but
on a sincere belief in the power of principles is necessary.
The time for such discussion and debate is now. And, having
seen the work of Daniel and the anarcho-marxist list that he
has created, I consider him to be a worthy opponent."

In the BLACK corner, fighting for the Anarchist team, stands Daniel X-Trot. Daniel is a reformed Trotskyist involved with the struggle for refugee rights in Australia. In response to Ben's provocations in the press conference, whilst being restrained by several security guards, Daniel was quoted as saying:

"I was once a Leninist like Ben, but was convinced through
arguments conducted on the Anarcho-Marxist list, that the
state is not simply the means by which one class maintains
its rule over another, but specifically that it is the means
by which a minority class maintains its rule over a majority
class. I believe that the consequences of this question
affect the entire character of the left. I always knew there
was something wrong with the organisation I had been in, but
could never find anything wrong with their theory, so I
always assumed it was a problem with the personalities I was
dealing with. Now, I believe it is leninist theory which
leads to these problems in organization, and I have yet to
encounter an intelligent defence of Leninist ideas, as
opposed to outcries rooted in a love of orthodoxy and
organizational ritual. Ben is an intelligent and passionate
defender of Leninism, whom I have found to be loyal not to
any organization, but only to the consistency of his own
principles. I hope we can establish a spirit of
collaboration in this debate, that sets a precedent for
other debates between anarchists and leninists."

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Debate Rules
-----------------------------------------------------------------

** The fight will be fought over at least 3 rounds,
with at least one post from each opponent in
each round, for a total of at least 6 posts.

** The opponents have agreed to respond fully and
in a non-evasive manner to all questions asked
of one another.

** The opponents shall have no more than 30 days to
respond to a post.

** The ring for the fight shall be the
Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement and Proletarian
Democracy elists and the website at:
 http://struggle.net/ALDS

** The fight will also be broadcast live to a few
other progressive lists and Indymedia sites

** Spectators should also feel free to jump in the
ring and throw some posts at either or both of
the opponents. This will be done by posting:

****** to the website MicroForums
****** or the Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement
or Proletarian Democracy elists
****** or the other elists or Indymedia sites
to which the fight is broadcast

Opponents are only obliged to address each
other. However they may raise or respond to
thoughtful posts brought up by spectators.

** Spectators who wish their views to circulate
more widely should email their posts directly to
Daniel at: rosen (at) teachyou (dot) com. Daniel
shall be responsible for assessing the relevance
of these posts and forwarding the better posts
to the Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement or
Proletarian Democracy elists.

** All posts shall be public domain, and may be
reposted on any other list or website in whole
or part. However we do ask, as a revolutionary
courtesy, that you link to the website at
 http://struggle.net/ALDS

** In the spirit of transparency, the negotiations
between the combatants over the debate question
and other matters relating to the debate are
posted in the public archives of the pof-200
elist.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
This fight jointly sponsored by:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

** the anarcho-marxist rapprochement elist
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anarcho-marxist/
(moderator/owner: Daniel)

The purpose of this forum is to facilitate respectful and fruitful discussion between anarchists and marxists from all shades of the ideological spectrum, for the purpose of helping all participants develop and elucidate their ideas through the dialectic of criticism and counter-criticism. In this way, we become more resonant agents in the (class) struggle to effectively sabotage Capital, its (state) apparatus/apex, and its Slaves, in all areas of our lives.

Our aim is to uncover, reclaim and invoke the original unity of anti-authoritarian and communistic ideas within the socialist tradition, and to discuss a variety of historical and emergent forms for channeling and invocating (bringing-into-the-world) our class Power. Our weapons include everything from revolutionary industrial unionism to sonic warfare; anything disrupting the mining of surplus-value by invoking our Power: the unity, dignity and sentience of our Class.

Warning: This list is unmoderated, but repetitive propaganda posting will not be tolerated.

** and the proletarian democracy elist
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proldem-open/
(moderator/owner: Ben)

Working class rule has never existed except in embryonic form (the Paris Commune of 1871 and early Soviet Russia). Nevertheless it will emerge triumphant in the 21st century. How will a modern society suppress the former ruling bourgeoisie without also suppressing the independent political life of workers?

The primary obstacle to the development of a mass movement focused on the overthrow of bourgeois rule and its replacement with a system of workers' rule is the complete theoretical bankruptcy of nearly all conceptions of workers' rule. The proletarian democracy elist is focused on helping to overcome this theoretical bankruptcy. Topics discussed include: ** competition of multiple workers' parties in the context of a stable, modern society ** The theoretically degenerate "left ecosystem" that offers activists two equally stupid alternatives: (1) a "socialist" police state or (2) eternal bourgeois rule. ** The sword of mass-based information war and the shield of separation of speech and property ** The Transition Economy ** Cargo Cult Leninism ** Participatory Economics ** the Self-Organizing Moneyless Economy

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tomorrow
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Round one begins !

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The class war continues folks, so stay tuned for the action!
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Website: http://struggle.net/alds
 

Lees meer over: globalisering

aanvullingen
> indymedia.nl > zoek > archief > hulp > doe mee > publiceer nieuws > open nieuwslijn > disclaimer > chat
DISCLAIMER: Indymedia NL werkt volgens een 'open posting' principe om zodoende de vrijheid van meningsuiting te bevorderen. De berichten (tekst, beelden, audio en video) die gepost zijn in de open nieuwslijn van Indymedia NL behoren toe aan de betreffende auteur. De meningen die naar voren komen in deze berichten worden niet zonder meer door de redactie van Indymedia NL gesteund. Ook is het niet altijd mogelijk voor Indymedia NL om de waarheid van de berichten te garanderen.